[yse]

Before I start on this subject, a little bit of background. I was promoted to admin a couple of months ago and since then I've tried to take on more of an active role in improving the site. However due to my lack of coding experience compared to the other admins I've taken a more practical approach, and this in particular is something I've discussed with Rolken at length.

As many of you know, The Sonic Center has been operational for pretty close to four years now. In that time we've seen many very talented players come and go from our ranks. Unfortunately, in recent times, there has been considerably more going than coming. This can be attributed to three main factors:

1) Sonic games suck lately
No explanation needed. When Sonic 06 is the best Sonic Team can come up with you know something is pretty seriously wrong there.

2) There is a limit to just how far stats can be improved
Every level has a theoretical max, and over the course of four years on many levels this is being, or has been, approached. Naturally there will be people who will continue improving regardless but those with their sights set on records will get discouraged eventually.

3) People will leave of their own volition anyway
See #2 to an extent. Gradually the older TAers among us have left the scene, Cybrax, Taco, Rayku, and recently myself among them. I feel with my experience that it is my duty to pass on what I know to those coming through the ranks... but there are not a whole lot of genuine TAers coming into TSC (see #1 for reasons why) to replace them. When the current "new guard" becomes the old guard, TSC as we know it will probably lie dormant.

While it will probably take at least two years for that to actually happen, this set of circumstances is best addressed now than when it might be too late. Obviously #1 is out of our control (as much as we'd like to see it, Megamix will never be a full-fledged game). #3 is probably also out of our control because we can't keep everyone around... however, the option is there to provide a different offering.

It is #2 that needs most attention. And while the fact that many of the theoretical limits are being reached is not going to change, I believed that something could be done.

So last week, I brought it up with Rolken. Eventually it got to the point where we actually had a serious discussion in IRC about the future of the site - the three points above being key factors in the discussion.

Our consensus drew the following conclusions:

1) Subsites as we know them now will be no more.
As we know, the subsites have done little to a) spark up additional competition and b) draw in new members. This, from my perspective, is probably due to a lack of advertising on the part of the respective admins (though I did see a topic for the Megaman one on SDA which got mikwuyma curious, at least). It was determined that the best way for additional competition to occur on these games would be to fold the subsites back into TSC's structure and have everything on the one site, so all new visitors to TSC would recognise their existence rather than be forced to look down at that "network" tab. (At 1024x768, I can't see that tab on the first screen. Perhaps something as simple as moving the tab to a more prominent position on the sidebar would help?)

2) Competition will no longer be limited to time/ring/whatever attacking as we know it now.
Our plan saw an emphasis on multiplayer competition as essential to moving the site forward. Basically, we could set up "leagues" of players within which they would compete in challenges, which Rolken or somebody else who elects not to compete would devise. Scoring systems for such leagues are up in the air, but we'll save that discussion for another time. All that is relevant for now is that there'll be some sort of system in which players can compete against each other directly, not just individually, to go alongside our existing offering.

And I feel that point is important. We're not going to throw away the past four years to focus on this new strategy because there are no guarantees that it will work the way we want it to. And if it doesn't, we'll try something different.

In summary: TSC could be left alone and nobody would notice there was a problem. It's two to three years down the track where, if still left alone, TSC will probably not have much of a future. So instead of sitting on our hands we're taking action now.

Now tell me what you think. I know there'll be myriad ideas among you, and they'll be entertained.

UPDATE: watch this space for coherent ideas/ramblings regarding the specifics of this eventual strategy.

[EngiNerd]

I like it.  A lot.  It sounds like a good idea, open things up to more challenges and competitions, and keep the old ones running.  By all means, keep the "classic" stat pages running; I just now found them, I really like the challenge of climbing them, and they prompted me to pull out games I hadn't touched in a while (namely, SADX and Sonic Heroes).  But, adding more competitions is an awesome idea.  I think it would add a little more fun to place an identity to the people I'm beating.  I just want to point out, though, that such competitions should be available by video upload, unlike the current emerald challenges which require ROM uploads.  Just thought I should point that out.

[P.P.A.]

Sounds good to me. Although I doubt that not-Sonic subsites will survive a parts of a Sonic site.

[Waxwings]

I know the feeling.

Who knows. Maybe something'll work. But yeah. Competition is sparse, from what I've heard. :/

[Thorn]

Hey mike, I thought you told me to make this speech, then pin it on RPG when everybody cries?

* Thorn drags his draft of the speech to the Recycle Bin.

Okay, a few points I wanna address:

1) Sonic games suck lately

Hear hear.

1) Subsites as we know them now will be no more... due to a lack of advertising on the part of the respective admins

Okay, let's see... The hacking community won't stop arguing amongst itself, the SRB2 boards are full of recolors and people hoo tawk lik dis, and some of the other fangames on the site have no community. I think keeping our "advertising" down to just moving existing TSCers over to TUSC was a better idea. >_>  No offense to the intelligent people from those communities, btw.

I just want to point out, though, that such competitions should be available by video upload, unlike the current emerald challenges which require ROM uploads.

Who told you to upload a ROM? You only need to upload a key input file. And do you know how much space would be needed on the TSC server to hold competition videos from everybody, instead of the system we have now? I think I'd rather download the 50 KB key input file than the 10000 KB video when I have to grade challenges.

[Spinballwizard]

Didn't we once mention some form of competition league that never went anywhere?

The only sketchy thing about multiplayer though is to what extent that's used. Netplay? Some people have nazi firewalls out of their control *cough*. That and some of the more popular games (SA2B) don't have such a feature available. Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean by multiplayer.

I had an idea a while ago for a general challenge site thing that I was going to try to operate on my own, but it pretty much failed and died. (Though I definitely want to see how many of you can TA Hot Crater 2 as Knuckles without pressing left or right or using the spin dash.)

Edit: Vid added. >_>

[magnum12]

-I like the new subsite idea. We were discussing how to recruit and basically had no luck (we even tried to recruit from Mega Man communities). The full fusion is probably the best way to go about it. It will also make adding new games easier since within the entire community, there's bound to be some experts in regards to the respective games (promote experts of a new game to mod status in that realm). It will probably expand competition as a whole since Mega Man games (as an example) offer a new set of challenges and strategies in order to master speed runs for those games (primarily the art of fast kills while at top speed and keeping your health up for the boss battle).
-Don't be so sure about point 1 (about Sonic games). The hands on impressions I read about Sonic Rush Adventure were nothing but positive with exception to the exploration but that's minor at worst. The Olympics game is guaranteed to be good since Shigeru Miyamoto is supervising the game (and we all know his reputaton for quality).

[Crowbar]

-Don't be so sure about point 1 (about Sonic games). The hands on impressions I read about Sonic Rush Adventure were nothing but positive with exception to the exploration but that's minor at worst. The Olympics game is guaranteed to be good since Shigeru Miyamoto is supervising the game (and we all know his reputaton for quality).

Sonic Rush was good too but that hardly changed the face of the competition community. And even if Olympics is good, it'll still be only a spinoff game. SatSR (whether this is generally considered good I'm not so sure) falls under this bracket too.

While I certainly see Rush as nothing less than a completely valid addition to the franchise, and SatSR the same, they are not widely perceived as "proper" Sonic games. Until there is a "proper" Sonic game that is actually really good, Sonic games will continue to be seen to be bad.

[X-5]

stsr sucks dont worry. I would not be complaining if I actually had the ability to move backwards and have freedom for F sake, is it that much to ask?

but at your point #2, I dont understand it. are you saying you want levels to have weak records cause everyone get discouraged? what the heck, I cannot even get close to any single eggman/tails record on SA2B cause Supersonic101 is some kinda TAS abilitied god. but that doesnt make me wanna quit, it makes me want to try harder(and still fail) and then afterwards ill sit there and laugh at myself cause I realize here I am with what I feel is a flawless run, and im 8 seconds off him.. oh god. then I think "dannnnnng I suck at this game, how does he do this stuff?" but that does not give me a negative impact nor want to leave the site.. it just makes me know some people will always be better than me, and in a way it makes me feel cool about myself, dunno why lol. well actually I guess its cause I know I met my limits, but there is still someone whose still 10 times better than me, but I am happy still cause I know I did my best.

If a person leaves this site without even putting effort into TRYING to beat the record then theyre probably a person who thinks along the lines of "Oh man im so good.. but I cant beat this guy only cuz he played the level 18 million times and I have a oh so important life I dont have the time to play more than 3 times bye"

these are the typeof people that odds are they suck at life cause they give up on stuff before they even get anywhere near what they could potentially do, dont feel that as a loss cause you dont want people like that here anyway.


just my thoughts on that.

[Shadow Jacky]

the point about the games being good or bad was discussed.  I mean look at the games that have come out past Sonic Heroes?  Adv3, Rush, Riders, Rivals, Shadow, SSR, S06 and anything else doesn't have as many players as anything else that came out eariler (disregard any not so popular games like Fighters >_>).  whether you found them good or not isn't the point, not a lot of people want to compete in them unlike SA1 or 2 and even heroes as of late.  naturally people come to the older games since its like "hey I played enough of SA1 or whatever and I have sonic 1 somewhere buried...why dont I give that a go" and it can go in other directions. 

its also just like point #1 where we cant control what sega does with these games and also the fact on the system that it comes to.  not everyone here owns every system or even have the money to go out and do so.  I dont know, maybe competition as a whole is getting bleak and it may be just not here either.  only time can tell.

also paragod, read #2 again >_>

[Conker T. Squirrel]

sounds great to me

[Ring Rush]

Honestly I don't see why we need to do something like this. There are other sites for tournaments and things like that, no need to add them all to TSC. TSC doesn't have to live forever, and if competition declines than competition declines. No point trying to add extra features to extend a competition site when its main purpose is dieing.

Also, I think this was the point SJ was trying to make, but a lot of the newer games don't have many competition, because they haven't been out for a while. Just give those time and they will slowly creep up (okay, maybe not Rivals, but SSR will probably get more popular).

And finally, a question: if we do merge subsites into TSC, does the site rank stay only Sonic or does it require competing in all games for the highest rank? I'd definately vote to keep it a Sonic / TUSC / Megaman split.

[Magnezone]

No point trying to add extra features to extend a competition site when its main purpose is dieing.

Right, so the purpose of the entire site is to die instead of providing information on the best Sonic the Hedgehog records known to the internet. That is an unnecessarily cynical approach you've taken there. :[

Also, on the matter of advertising for TUSC, unless I'm blind I think it is noteworthy that I haven't seen any advertising about the subsite going on over here.

[Bilan]

Also, on the matter of advertising for TUSC, unless I'm blind I think it is noteworthy that I haven't seen any advertising about the subsite going on over here.

Oops.

I forgot that place even existed >_<

EDIT: Actually where DID we advertise.

SCD (Shut up)
SRB2 (Which got nowhere)
And I seem to recall a 3rd and 4th but cant remember

[EngiNerd]

This is what I get for being gone all day.  @ Thorn:

1) Subsites as we know them now will be no more... due to a lack of advertising on the part of the respective admins

Okay, let's see... The hacking community won't stop arguing amongst itself, the SRB2 boards are full of recolors and people hoo tawk lik dis, and some of the other fangames on the site have no community. I think keeping our "advertising" down to just moving existing TSCers over to TUSC was a better idea. >_>  No offense to the intelligent people from those communities, btw.

I just want to point out, though, that such competitions should be available by video upload, unlike the current emerald challenges which require ROM uploads.

Who told you to upload a ROM? You only need to upload a key input file. And do you know how much space would be needed on the TSC server to hold competition videos from everybody, instead of the system we have now? I think I'd rather download the 50 KB key input file than the 10000 KB video when I have to grade challenges.

First off, I never realized that we were involved with SRB2/TMR until you stated that.  Those are among the reasons I don't visit that board anymore (at least my fanchar is original, and I actually made a serious attempt at editing the EXE).  Well, that and the fact that to this date I cannot beat Aerial Gardens 1.

And by "ROM upload" I meant "ROM related upload".  I still don't like the idea of ROMs, and I just think having a video option would be nice.  Not directly to TSC; put them on SendSpace or YouTube and link them or something.

Finally, I sure hope that we don't try to combine everything into the same ranks; at least keep those separate.  Why?  (I'm gonna get flamed for this)  I have never played MegaMan and never intend to.  The fact that I probably will not add any stats there will keep me needlessly low on the charts.

[Thorn]

And by "ROM upload" I meant "ROM related upload".  I still don't like the idea of ROMs, and I just think having a video option would be nice.  Not directly to TSC; put them on SendSpace or YouTube and link them or something.

You're still missing my biggest point of concern:

I think I'd rather download the 50 KB key input file than the 10000 KB video when I have to grade challenges.

Videos. Are. Huge.
Fact of life, really. I'm not grading anybody's challenges by video because then I have to allow everybody to use videos. Then I spend more time downloading than grading. I understand you ethical concerns with ROMs, so lemme state one thing; not to sway you, but in the defense of the Emerald Challenges: nobody here has promoted DLing games that you do not own. The only official game that I've downloaded that I don't own is Sonic Pocket Adventure, because I'll never be able to own that. Chaotix is the same way for many people. With hacks and fan games, my opinion is that I respect their illegality, but also respect that the creators are not offering them as a substitute to Sonic1/2/3&K, and therefore no ill intent is meant. It's an iffy subject, I know. I just don't want the challenges looked down upon because we are looking for a memory- and time-saving way to grade and play.

[yse]

Okay I'd better clarify a few things.

The only sketchy thing about multiplayer though is to what extent that's used. Netplay? Some people have nazi firewalls out of their control *cough*. That and some of the more popular games (SA2B) don't have such a feature available. Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean by multiplayer.

First off as I've discussed at length with anyone that cares to listen netplay is out. It screws up too many competitors (myself notably) and even for those that can play it is rarely a fair match. Moreover lag is just lame.

It is not multiplayer in the "true" sense; two (or more!) players will undertake the same challenge and be given win/loss or a rating based on their score/time compared to others. There's infinitely many ways you can do things differently even given the same levels, and nobody said we're limited to Sonic games either...

At the end of which people are ranked and relegated/promoted and we run a bunch of leagues simultaneously whereupon people are continually crowned pwnage or suckage.

Honestly I don't see why we need to do something like this. There are other sites for tournaments and things like that, no need to add them all to TSC. TSC doesn't have to live forever, and if competition declines than competition declines. No point trying to add extra features to extend a competition site when its main purpose is dieing.

RR why you continue to show opposition for the sake of it defies me :/

I simply ask you this: Why would I up and go to another site when I don't have to? (Particularly when that site would be, or at least resemble, SCD. I would not play in tournaments organised by them for very long :/)

And finally, a question: if we do merge subsites into TSC, does the site rank stay only Sonic or does it require competing in all games for the highest rank? I'd definately vote to keep it a Sonic / TUSC / Megaman split.

Split. Probably called "Groupwide Rankings" or something and that sounds crap I know so suggest something better.

Right, so the purpose of the entire site is to die instead of providing information on the best Sonic the Hedgehog records known to the internet. That is an unnecessarily cynical approach you've taken there. :[

For great justice.

Specifically, TSC, like any site, has to evolve if it wants to survive. This is the best way I know, RR or anyone else if you have a better idea suggest it.

[magnum12]

We could have group rankings and a whole site ranking at the same time.

[Rolken]

One misconception I want to clear up is that this is simply a desperate grab for TSC's survival for its own sake; it is not. I am of the opinion that we have one of the best ranking systems and one of the best groups of people in competitive gaming. Almost every statistic competition community is dying, stagnating or ineffective, and none of them but us seem to be interesting in planning out how that is to be remedied.

As for us, I hold us to be in the "stagnating" category. It is important to bear in mind that we are most definitely NOT dying as it stands. Our regular visitors are at an all-time high (though just barely), and up significantly from a year ago.

Moreover, there will probably never be a complete fusion between series. The current concept being thrown around is that there are different 'groups', of which one would be Sonic and one would be Megaman and so on. If you only want to play Sonic, then only join the Sonic group and keep using the Sonic skin and there won't be too much difference. If you want to play other series, join the appropriate groups and you'll see their rankings pop up parallel to the other groups. All our concepts and philosophy on statistic competition remain unaltered; the only distinctions there are in the presentation. Any direction we take will be strictly additive to the missions already established.

As for the mechanics of competition leagues and so on, obviously we'll be constrained by what is technologically possible. The PSX/N64/Saturn and PS2/Xbox/Gamecube/Dreamcast eras will probably remain out of bounds for a considerable length of time; it's possible that advancements in PC power and the emulation scene will render the former generation accessible within a few years (though I won't be staking any bets on it), but the latter generation is so far in the long term that it's not really worth discussing. My greater hope is that going forward competition will be facilitated by a two-pronged assault between older console emulation and new services like XBL and NWFC. How far that will go on Nintendo's side remains to be seen, but Rush 2 being online is a promising sign.

On actual cam video gameplay: I don't think it's realistic enough to really be a focus. Even among TSC-level competitors, there probably won't be many dedicated enough to go through the effort of getting a video through a recorder, codec, and upload, especially if we're talking about something like a weekly challenge. It might prove tenable enough to provide it as a second option for people who don't want to do emulator runs, but it won't be worth much as a sole pillar supporting challenges on the Gamecube and so on.

[yse]

Do you see why I wanted you to make the initial post X)

I think that clears up all the relevant odds and ends.

[yse]

Didn't we once mention some form of competition league that never went anywhere?

Oh hey I found what you were on about.

Specifically:

Competition leagues: groups of people who want to compete together, with their own rankings

That was for more like how Mario Kart 64 does rivalries - generally 3-4 people who have a separate rankings sheet for competing with each other (parallel to the overall game's chart, of course). That's completely different to what's being discussed here: a proper league system with relegations and promotions etc.

PS I know double posting is bad but I'd rather you actually saw this.